'Unfortunately, colder baths are just logistically impossible. It would completely eliminate the “accessibility” feature.'
You need a bathtub and a large freezer. Common freezer bags will do for creating ice. A bathtub thermometer is also nice. I can send you a spreadsheet gizmo that calculates the temperature of the water depending on the tub volume, water starting temp and the mass of ice. If your tub has a whirlpool function, you can use it to melt the ice faster, which makes the water go cold faster. Being inside with the whirlpool on, you can go much more intense with the stimulis. Though that's varsity level.
The whirlpool part is nice to have, but not essential. Just put the frozen ice bags in a bucket, put on some earmuffs (if you're inside) and goggles and crush the ice bags with a hammer for a bit longer. Lots of fun. Don't bother trying to separate the ice from the plastic. Just pour the crushed mess from the bucket into the tub. A chest freezer costs a couple hundred dollars. Running energy costs are much less than a fridge for [insert nice Technology Connections video]-reasons. If you don't have a tub at all, you could get a foldable one. Some of them don't even need to be inflated, like this model (probably cheaper in the US):
Sep 5, 2022·edited Sep 5, 2022Liked by Paul Ingraham
Interesting that your “cold baths” end up being between 16 and 18 degrees Celsius. As an avid swimmer in locales short of swimming places, I have had the opportunity to find what my limit is for swimming (in a regular bathing suit) in cold water. It turns out that I find 18 degrees more or less tolerable for quite a while, but that 16 degrees is definitely too cold for me, even when actively swimming. Needless to say, it is completely different from simply immersing oneself in a cold bath (never tried it myself), but SWIMMING in cold water in the same range of temperatures might be a slightly easier form of experimentation in the “try everything” mold.
Swimming does seem very different, and probably much easier to sustain once immersed — although I suspect I would find it just as difficult to get into the water in the first place. I don’t know what the average ocean water temperature is around here, I should look into it. I’ve alway admired the kind of people who go for a swim in the ocean every morning. Perhaps I should try being one of them for a while!
My physio is having me ice my lower back twice a day (not a hardship in Toronto weather) but I am not seeing the point. (Excessive neuropathic pain of recent origin in left foot plus exacerbation of numbness and bruisy pain in left thigh).
Hiya Paul. I hope PTE is feeling like a sturdy enterprise, and that it leads to an A-ha! moment or three. We, your friends, are rooting for you! 💪💛🙏
There were previously more than 2 comments on this post, but now I can only see 2. I’m new to Substack so maybe this is normal, but I wanted to alert you in case it isn’t. If not, hopefully it’s an easy fix.
Not sure about the previously >2 comments thing. I am also new to Substack, and have encountered quite a few things I don’t understand. 🙂 Currently I see 2 comments, each with a reply from me. Maybe those are the 2 you weren't seeing for some reason.
About 12 years ago, at age 56, I had an unfortunate spinal surgery. The surgeon erroneously diagnosed me as having a benign cyst pressing on a nerve at around the L4/L5 junction. (It was probably a strained piriformis muscle as I had just started playing tennis without warming up or good glute musculature). Sadly, during the surgery when he couldn't reach his target (the tiny water cyst), he chose to clip out the lamina. Tragic. Of course, I subsequently developed severe spondylolisthesis, and a whole host of related painful side effects. I couldn't walk, sit, or lie down without agony.
I spent two years in a lot of pain; the horrible surgeon prescribed oxycontin (yes, I got to go down that road). Finally I shook off the fog and took control of the situation. Like you, I embarked on a Try Everything & Anything approach. And that is how I came across Pain Science on the internet and the beginning of my road to recovery.
So you, my friend, are my hero. I weaned myself off the pain meds; found a good p.t./orthopedic massage therapist who worked on my knotted muscles and a good p.t./trainer who is a disciple of Stuart McGill. It's been a long slow slog, but happy to report that while I still am Grade II (45%) spondylolisthesis, I can run/walk/hike/play tennis, mostly without pain. I just hiked the Mist Trail at Yosemite, up and down and back again.
I believe I've emailed and thanked you before. But now that you are on your own mission, I had to write and add my two cents. During my recovery, I experienced some of the same symptoms you are describing. Still in my 'try everything' frame of mind, I tried going gluten-free. I know, I know. But I now believe that gluten (or maybe the RoundUp in all wheat products) causes inflammation of fascial tissue. When I eat wheat products, that diffuse, hard-to-pinpoint pain reappears, especially in my legs. I lose energy and feel tired. Interestingly, one of my three daughters feels the same way and has become strictly gluten-free as a result...so there's that very unscientific back-up.
Try it. Be strict about it (it's not that hard) for at least a month, if not six weeks. 'Can't hurt, might help. I really want you to get the relief that you've given me. I'll pulling for you.
Thanks, Susan. Yes, I recall hearing from you in the past. Your cautionary tale about surgery is memorable! I am so sorry you've been through such hardships… and very happy to hear that you feel like you're doing somewhat better these days.
Gluten and/or FODMAP elimination is on my roadmap, along with a few other similar things. I have tried FODMAP elimination already, once, but need to give it at least 1 or 2 more tries. I remain unsure if gluten "intolerance" is actually a thing (as opposed to celiac disease), I mean that in the most earnest way: I actually just don’t know. And it’s not like it’s a great hardship to try, especially these days. Vancouver is rotten with gluten-free bakeries. 🙂
'Unfortunately, colder baths are just logistically impossible. It would completely eliminate the “accessibility” feature.'
You need a bathtub and a large freezer. Common freezer bags will do for creating ice. A bathtub thermometer is also nice. I can send you a spreadsheet gizmo that calculates the temperature of the water depending on the tub volume, water starting temp and the mass of ice. If your tub has a whirlpool function, you can use it to melt the ice faster, which makes the water go cold faster. Being inside with the whirlpool on, you can go much more intense with the stimulis. Though that's varsity level.
Thanks for the ideas. However, unfortunately, I do not have a large freezer. 🙂 (Or a tub with a whirlpool.)
The whirlpool part is nice to have, but not essential. Just put the frozen ice bags in a bucket, put on some earmuffs (if you're inside) and goggles and crush the ice bags with a hammer for a bit longer. Lots of fun. Don't bother trying to separate the ice from the plastic. Just pour the crushed mess from the bucket into the tub. A chest freezer costs a couple hundred dollars. Running energy costs are much less than a fridge for [insert nice Technology Connections video]-reasons. If you don't have a tub at all, you could get a foldable one. Some of them don't even need to be inflated, like this model (probably cheaper in the US):
https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Foldable-Bathtub-Bathroom-Portable-Standing/dp/B0973FCNKL/ref=sr_1_6?crid=S4SPBZZEFG1A&keywords=badewanne&qid=1668957073&sprefix=badewanne%2Caps%2C95&sr=8-6
There are a lot stupider things to get on Black Friday, anyway.
Here's my document for calculating temperature:
https://1drv.ms/x/s!AnW9DTwVxi8Miu8UnIuxmH9kM4LTCA?e=rkLH2e
Do with this, what you will.
Interesting that your “cold baths” end up being between 16 and 18 degrees Celsius. As an avid swimmer in locales short of swimming places, I have had the opportunity to find what my limit is for swimming (in a regular bathing suit) in cold water. It turns out that I find 18 degrees more or less tolerable for quite a while, but that 16 degrees is definitely too cold for me, even when actively swimming. Needless to say, it is completely different from simply immersing oneself in a cold bath (never tried it myself), but SWIMMING in cold water in the same range of temperatures might be a slightly easier form of experimentation in the “try everything” mold.
Swimming does seem very different, and probably much easier to sustain once immersed — although I suspect I would find it just as difficult to get into the water in the first place. I don’t know what the average ocean water temperature is around here, I should look into it. I’ve alway admired the kind of people who go for a swim in the ocean every morning. Perhaps I should try being one of them for a while!
My physio is having me ice my lower back twice a day (not a hardship in Toronto weather) but I am not seeing the point. (Excessive neuropathic pain of recent origin in left foot plus exacerbation of numbness and bruisy pain in left thigh).
Hiya Paul. I hope PTE is feeling like a sturdy enterprise, and that it leads to an A-ha! moment or three. We, your friends, are rooting for you! 💪💛🙏
There were previously more than 2 comments on this post, but now I can only see 2. I’m new to Substack so maybe this is normal, but I wanted to alert you in case it isn’t. If not, hopefully it’s an easy fix.
Hiya Megan. Nice to see you here!
Not sure about the previously >2 comments thing. I am also new to Substack, and have encountered quite a few things I don’t understand. 🙂 Currently I see 2 comments, each with a reply from me. Maybe those are the 2 you weren't seeing for some reason.
About 12 years ago, at age 56, I had an unfortunate spinal surgery. The surgeon erroneously diagnosed me as having a benign cyst pressing on a nerve at around the L4/L5 junction. (It was probably a strained piriformis muscle as I had just started playing tennis without warming up or good glute musculature). Sadly, during the surgery when he couldn't reach his target (the tiny water cyst), he chose to clip out the lamina. Tragic. Of course, I subsequently developed severe spondylolisthesis, and a whole host of related painful side effects. I couldn't walk, sit, or lie down without agony.
I spent two years in a lot of pain; the horrible surgeon prescribed oxycontin (yes, I got to go down that road). Finally I shook off the fog and took control of the situation. Like you, I embarked on a Try Everything & Anything approach. And that is how I came across Pain Science on the internet and the beginning of my road to recovery.
So you, my friend, are my hero. I weaned myself off the pain meds; found a good p.t./orthopedic massage therapist who worked on my knotted muscles and a good p.t./trainer who is a disciple of Stuart McGill. It's been a long slow slog, but happy to report that while I still am Grade II (45%) spondylolisthesis, I can run/walk/hike/play tennis, mostly without pain. I just hiked the Mist Trail at Yosemite, up and down and back again.
I believe I've emailed and thanked you before. But now that you are on your own mission, I had to write and add my two cents. During my recovery, I experienced some of the same symptoms you are describing. Still in my 'try everything' frame of mind, I tried going gluten-free. I know, I know. But I now believe that gluten (or maybe the RoundUp in all wheat products) causes inflammation of fascial tissue. When I eat wheat products, that diffuse, hard-to-pinpoint pain reappears, especially in my legs. I lose energy and feel tired. Interestingly, one of my three daughters feels the same way and has become strictly gluten-free as a result...so there's that very unscientific back-up.
Try it. Be strict about it (it's not that hard) for at least a month, if not six weeks. 'Can't hurt, might help. I really want you to get the relief that you've given me. I'll pulling for you.
Thanks, Susan. Yes, I recall hearing from you in the past. Your cautionary tale about surgery is memorable! I am so sorry you've been through such hardships… and very happy to hear that you feel like you're doing somewhat better these days.
Gluten and/or FODMAP elimination is on my roadmap, along with a few other similar things. I have tried FODMAP elimination already, once, but need to give it at least 1 or 2 more tries. I remain unsure if gluten "intolerance" is actually a thing (as opposed to celiac disease), I mean that in the most earnest way: I actually just don’t know. And it’s not like it’s a great hardship to try, especially these days. Vancouver is rotten with gluten-free bakeries. 🙂